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Jowy2000
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 Posted: Thu Feb 21, 2008 7:22 pm Post subject: New Format Discussion |
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I'd like to have some ideas thrown around about the league format for season 5 and would hope that everyone can give a little input.
For those of you unfamiliar with this, refer to my cancellation thread, http://www.bungeholes.com/rl/viewtopic.php?t=1466
I really would like any suggestions, comments, concerns, anything.
Particularly with the point system, right now I'm toying with the idea of having a rank or tier system that teams will be preliminarily placed into based on clan level, roster level, or something.
So, a tier 1 team would be really good, so if they beat a tier 3 team, they would get fewer points, but if a tier 3 team beat a tier 1 team, they would get a lot more.
A bonus to this, since so many people have asked for a low level league and a high level league, this allows us to combine it. All the tiers can play together, and ultimately the winner is the best of them all, but we could still have prizes for the best tier 3 team or tier 2 team.
This eliminates the problem of not having enough teams and provides an incentive for lower level clans to participate.
What I'm thinking off now:
Tier 1: 85+
Tier 2: 70+
Tier 3: 50+
Tier 4: 11+
With the tiers not necessarily(but still heavily) being determined by average level since that is manipulatable, but moreso determined by the most active players, and the clan leaders. So more like hte average level of your roster, but I dont want to say that because again, thats manipulatable.
What do you guys think about that? Or anything else?
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| Posted: Thu Feb 21, 2008 10:22 pm Post subject: |
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I like how the flexibility of this new format rids of problems like match time, etc.
So far what you have is good, but I question the tier system based on levels. As you mentioned, yes it can be manipulable, but sometimes it doesn't matter due to perhaps a negative correlation between level and skill. Perhaps we can hold some preliminary rounds which allows us to see which teams are better and base tiers on amount of wins instead of levels. Of course, this also poses a problem because consistency in winning is an issue for some clans, and thus they may not be in the appropriate tier based solely on preliminaries.
I don't like either solutions, tiers based on levels moreso. I went back to read that thread you linked to and I like BlackGetsuga's suggestion (the one you hinted to in your post). Don't use tiers, but base points on ranking. So at the start, everybody has 0 (the same) rank, so beating any team yields the same point count. After a few matches, we will have teams ranked from best to worst, perhaps with a few ties but that doesn't matter.
So the worst team beating a really good team gets a lot of points. What's so great about this ranking system is that as the season goes on, a bad team can get better and this kind of point system can account for these fluctuations in skills, perhaps due to roster change, who knows.
Thus far, this is probably the best format. It accounts for everything the tier system solves (match time, incentives for newbie clans), and more: sensitivity to win/loss, no bias toward roster levels, and ease of implementation. By the last point, I mean that it's kinda difficult finding out whose the active players in the clan and stuff like that. To manipulatable as you mentioned.
I wish I can think this through some more but I am so busy. I'll try to contribute more to this topic later 
Hi Mint.
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| Posted: Fri Feb 22, 2008 1:45 am Post subject: |
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| I actually quite like the idea of the Tier teams, makes it somewhat fairer to the disadvantage. But the only concern with me is the gold golem. The league is a foundation for skill, the gold golem makes it easy for anyone to win the game just by simply killing it, taking it and running to kill the golem slow yet steady. That being said, chipping the golem makes it annoying as well, a ninja gliding for 5 minutes to avoid being killed by an entire team while they chip is rather annoying. |
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Jowy2000
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| Posted: Fri Feb 22, 2008 12:18 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: |
| but I question the tier system based on levels. As you mentioned, yes it can be manipulable, but sometimes it doesn't matter due to perhaps a negative correlation between level and skill. Perhaps we can hold some preliminary rounds which allows us to see which teams are better and base tiers on amount of wins instead of levels. |
I see the problem there, but the problem with the point system is that everyone starts out as a blank slate, which obviously isn't very accurate and it would take some time for appropriate levels to develop(not to mention Im not sure what kind of formula would be devised for it). And while a tier system wouldn't be accurate either, I'd personally think if done properly it would, in an overall sense, be more accurate. It would take at least 5 matches for appropriate rankings to develop, and think of how skewed it would be right away. Let's say a fairly potent clan fights one of the best clans right away, loses 0-7, then the fairly potent clan fights a low level clan that hasnt played a match yet. This would screw around the rankings for at least a short time before it appropriately developed. There would incentives to manipulate your ranking as well.
What about the idea of having a 2 week preseason that will help determine your tier level? Or maybe not a preseason, but tierless battle, or placement games, however you'd want to look at it.
This way we don't eliminate a lower tier reward as an incentive for low level teams to participate, but we can also factor in actual game performance.
This also allows us to more properly gage average level by looking at who they used in those matches.
This gives us even more factors to play with for a tier system.
Raw average level, average level of players used, wins/losses, performance compared to the teams they played.
So maybe, raw average level (Of players who signed on in the past month)[Or maybe average level of your roster] + average level of players used in the preliminary matches / 2 to give us a sense of their true average level. Then we can factor in who they played and how well they did and bump them up or down or not at all accordingly, which really doesn't seem like an overly complicated process, this kind of thing is what the game mods are for.
| Quote: |
Of course, this also poses a problem because consistency in winning is an issue for some clans, and thus they may not be in the appropriate tier based solely on preliminaries. |
The point alteration I was thinking of for the tier system would be 10 points for a win, -3 points for a loss, compensated by 1 point for every difference in tier level. So if a tier 4 team lost to a tier 1 team, they would not gain or lose points because they would add 3 points to the -3. The winning team would get 7 points. So tier placement would not be extremely critical even if it weren't completely accurate, though if we used the system, we would of course devise the best way we could for making it accurate.
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Panzerlord
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| Posted: Fri Feb 22, 2008 1:05 pm Post subject: |
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Or you can gather a group of people you trust and know the clans well. Have them seed the clans, since some are obviously better. Any clan wishing to dispute this has a week to have a clan match with whoever they think they are better than. If the challenger wins, he switches seed numbers with the loser.
Let's say Akatsuki is seeded at 10, with some clan...like PAIN seeded at 9. If I wish to dispute this, then we play a match. If we win, PAIN gets seeded at 10 and Akatsuki at 9. The problem is that everyone would want a lower seed...since they get more points for winning.
If you have a few battles to determine the tiers, some good clans might do horribly on purpose. They can send in lower levels in the preseason/or tierless battles and use higher levels in real scrims.
-------------------------
Another way might be having that group put clans into 3 tiers. Only Tier one gets to play in the playoffs/finals. Clans in Tier 2 and 3 have to advance by beat clans above them. If Akatsuki is in Tier 3, and Shono at Tier 2, Akatsuki can beat Shono and get into Tier 2. Shono gets switched to Tier 3.
The problem here might be the Tier 1 people not willing to play any games since they are already in. How bout having a point system in there also. Wins are 2 points, loses are -1 point. Teams must have 10 points to partcipate in the playoffs even if they are in Tier 1.
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| Posted: Fri Feb 29, 2008 8:31 pm Post subject: |
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Nearly done all my midterms... but still a few to go and more homework and projects...
I was hoping for more replies until I had to make my next reply... Where is <Mint> the smart young Asian girl? I kinda expected her to make her views public because I look up to her intellect and her beauty.
Anyways...
| Panzerlord wrote: |
Or you can gather a group of people you trust and know the clans well. Have them seed the clans, since some are obviously better. Any clan wishing to dispute this has a week to have a clan match with whoever they think they are better than. If the challenger wins, he switches seed numbers with the loser.
Let's say Akatsuki is seeded at 10, with some clan...like PAIN seeded at 9. If I wish to dispute this, then we play a match. If we win, PAIN gets seeded at 10 and Akatsuki at 9. The problem is that everyone would want a lower seed...since they get more points for winning.
If you have a few battles to determine the tiers, some good clans might do horribly on purpose. They can send in lower levels in the preseason/or tierless battles and use higher levels in real scrims.
-------------------------
Another way might be having that group put clans into 3 tiers. Only Tier one gets to play in the playoffs/finals. Clans in Tier 2 and 3 have to advance by beat clans above them. If Akatsuki is in Tier 3, and Shono at Tier 2, Akatsuki can beat Shono and get into Tier 2. Shono gets switched to Tier 3.
The problem here might be the Tier 1 people not willing to play any games since they are already in. How bout having a point system in there also. Wins are 2 points, loses are -1 point. Teams must have 10 points to partcipate in the playoffs even if they are in Tier 1. |
I dislike your first notion. The idea of swapping ranks is kinda stoopid and not because clans will lose on purpose to get a lower seed. I actually think that it will balance out because then both clans in the battle will both try to lose, but there can only be one loser in a game with odd rounds. Thus, both teams trying to be the losers is like the more sensible way of both teams trying to be winners. Also I doubt both teams will wait it out or anything like that, because that will just tie up the round meaning another one has to be played since there must be 4 winning rounds to win. But we already knew that... So I'll leave it at: This is the better of your 2 ideas.
Your second idea is just like in pro sports... teams with the most point makes it in the playoffs... I don't get how that is different than previous seasons... and it's making me use all these ellipses... the way you try to solve it is just ( ( (( c i r c u l a r r e a s o n )) ) )... by making tier 1 require 10 points to make it in the playoffs means you're implicitly splitting up tier 1 into two tiers: a new tier 1 and a new tier 2 where the new tier 1 guarantees you a playoff berth when you get 10 points... but then you're going to say, but then teams in tier 1 aren't willing to play anymore games (haha this reminds me of the Ottawa Senators: "OOooh WooWOo wee we the best team in the East... we surely PWWWN DA west... we have absolutely no motivation to get up each morning to play nhl games cause we're the best and don't need any more points." Haha stupid Canadian teams and their arrogance because they invented the sport. I'm glad they losing so much right now LOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOL)... so blaaah ... circular ... circles... round... firm... *touches*
| Jowy2000 wrote: |
| Quote: |
| but I question the tier system based on levels. As you mentioned, yes it can be manipulable, but sometimes it doesn't matter due to perhaps a negative correlation between level and skill. Perhaps we can hold some preliminary rounds which allows us to see which teams are better and base tiers on amount of wins instead of levels. |
I see the problem there, but the problem with the point system is that everyone starts out as a blank slate, which obviously isn't very accurate and it would take some time for appropriate levels to develop(not to mention Im not sure what kind of formula would be devised for it). And while a tier system wouldn't be accurate either, I'd personally think if done properly it would, in an overall sense, be more accurate. It would take at least 5 matches for appropriate rankings to develop, and think of how skewed it would be right away. Let's say a fairly potent clan fights one of the best clans right away, loses 0-7, then the fairly potent clan fights a low level clan that hasnt played a match yet. This would screw around the rankings for at least a short time before it appropriately developed. There would incentives to manipulate your ranking as well.
What about the idea of having a 2 week preseason that will help determine your tier level? Or maybe not a preseason, but tierless battle, or placement games, however you'd want to look at it.
This way we don't eliminate a lower tier reward as an incentive for low level teams to participate, but we can also factor in actual game performance.
This also allows us to more properly gage average level by looking at who they used in those matches.
This gives us even more factors to play with for a tier system.
Raw average level, average level of players used, wins/losses, performance compared to the teams they played.
So maybe, raw average level (Of players who signed on in the past month)[Or maybe average level of your roster] + average level of players used in the preliminary matches / 2 to give us a sense of their true average level. Then we can factor in who they played and how well they did and bump them up or down or not at all accordingly, which really doesn't seem like an overly complicated process, this kind of thing is what the game mods are for.
| Quote: |
Of course, this also poses a problem because consistency in winning is an issue for some clans, and thus they may not be in the appropriate tier based solely on preliminaries. |
The point alteration I was thinking of for the tier system would be 10 points for a win, -3 points for a loss, compensated by 1 point for every difference in tier level. So if a tier 4 team lost to a tier 1 team, they would not gain or lose points because they would add 3 points to the -3. The winning team would get 7 points. So tier placement would not be extremely critical even if it weren't completely accurate, though if we used the system, we would of course devise the best way we could for making it accurate. |
There is always a trade-off I guess. The easiest thing was to stick with out system before - everybody receiving the same points for win/loss/tie because of a fixed schedule.
But since we all want to be able to setup a match effortlessly, since we all suck at coming up with a match times, since we all suck because we're noobs taking part in a professional, structured league but can't make it to the match on time, then things get more complex. I dislike how we have to take into account so many factors, for example, average levels. Last time I checked, you were allowed to submit a roster 10 mins or something before a match. Average level will constantly be changing, I don't like the tediousness of constantly calculating averages no matter how easy it is. And that was just from one of the factors... A complex system isn't necessarily a good one, but just can cause more problems.
Don't get me wrong, I love the flexibility, but it's much too difficult to implement. Difficult and time-consuming. And will it work in the actual game? Sounds great on paper, but this type of thing requires LOTSA Planning, Analyzing, Designing, Developing, Testing, Implementing, Maintaining, Revising... I have been planning projects for many years now, and the one thing you must keep in mind is that if you want success, then you need less "rules." Rules can be synonymous with "factors" in this case.
I'd like to elaborate more but I'm very short on time. Have you guys made any breakthroughs that weren't posted yet? I may not have to time or the necessary brain size (I am a very stoopid man and still a virgin with no friends, alone with me and my rusty laptop and stale coffee) to contribute, but I can analysis what you guys have thus far and try to give some input.
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| Posted: Sun Mar 02, 2008 7:26 pm Post subject: |
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You have a point, but to clear up one issue there, factoring in average level would only have been done once, when determining tiers.
What do you think about this then:
A point system based on ranking in the current season that only takes affect after a certain amount of games have been played. Say, the points are +X for a win and -Y for a loss until total games played is 5+ or 4+, at which point there will be a system that alters the gains and losses...
That however.... is the tricky part
Perhaps rate the teams by round win rate?
say, team A has a 60% RWR and team B has a 20% RWR
[Let's assume that a win is +8 and a loss is -2]
So...
The difference between the win rates x 3 for alteration?
So Team A beats team B, .4 difference, x 2, so, Team A gets 6.8 points and Team B loses .8 points.
Hmmm, idk, that doesn't seem to balance it well to me...
Maybe, x 4 for gained points, x 3 for lost points.
So, same situation, Team A gets 6.4 points, team B loses .8 points.
This prevents good teams from climbing TOO fast from weaker teams.
(Obviously, you would not be able to gain points from a loss, so it caps out)
Idk, if you like that idea, the numbers can be played with until something fits right, what do you guys think?
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Falcon
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| Posted: Sun Mar 02, 2008 9:09 pm Post subject: |
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Factoring average level once is probably a double-edged sword. Sure it solves the complexity, but then it creates a problem when teams take advantage of the roster change. What happens if a roster's average level drastically changes or changes enough to make their tier seem like the wrong fitting? Keeping it fixed throughout won't solve this.
Hmm if we are going to wait for a few games to take place before implementing this point system, why don't we just stick with the blank state thing I mentioned earlier. I still think it's good because it gives a less well-known clan a change to have a great start, and it keeps past champions or elite clans on their toes as the newbies could go straight to the top right away.
I read your new point system based on RWR but I don't like the idea of calculating these percentages and multiplying and stuff. I like how it appears balanced though.
Here's my prototype (numbers are just examples, we change this later if we actually use this idea):
Each team starts out as blank state and plays 5 games each. Let's say there is 6 teams. After each team plays 5 games (we don't set match times, but we do set deadlines for how many matches you must play by a certain date), we get the following rankings:
1. IAmTheSmartest_rz
2. Darth
3. xBHx
4. Simplicity, Unforgiven (2-way tie)
5. EuroHotties
Ranking is done by the number of points earned. Since first 5 games are blank states, fixed points for wins/losses will be distributed. Let's say 3 points for win, -3 for loss.
Now that we have all the clans ranked, we can set how much points a clan earns for defeating a clan in that rank:
1. Win - 7 Loss - 1
2. Win - 6 Loss - 2
3. Win - 5 Loss - 5
4. Win - 2 Loss - 6
5. Win - 1 Loss - 7
As you can see, if you are in clan EuroHotties (5th seed) (if you are, please private message me like RIGHT NOW), and you defeat fat_rz (1st seed), you gain 7 points. If you lose, then you only lose 1 point.
The opposite is true, a great team defeating a crap team wins only minor points, but if they lose, they lose big.
The thing is, this doesn't account for roster changes which I'm trying to figure out. Mainly, it doesn't account for win percentages after the blank state games. How will teams get ranked after the first 5 games?
Maybe for every 5 games played, we find the win % in the recent 5 games, and then reorder the clan ranks. We don't want to set this to low or this means constantly reordering and setting deadlines for 5 games, which we don't want to remain flexible.
GAaaah.
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| Posted: Mon Mar 03, 2008 8:40 am Post subject: |
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Sounds interesting, would Pravus actually be able to ever join this league? lol
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| Posted: Mon Mar 03, 2008 10:35 am Post subject: |
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If they are a good clan, I don't think they should be penalized for that. If fat_rz does win a lot of games and comes up 1st, why should the league be made harder for him? He needs to win more, to get the same amount of points and if he does lose, he needs to win even MORE to make up for the loss. I haven't really read what you posted since I am in class right now, but I still don't the point of winning those first 5 games in the beginning. If your purpose is to win in the end, then getting a seed like the Eurohotties would be great.
I am not as smart as Falcon here but I think this system should be based on how many stat points the clan's team has. Level does not matter now since you could have a lvl 30 with more points than my level 69... So have the whole team post up screenshots proving how many stat points they have, and get the average. Some people might restat into a lower level and then restat again but, they waste money. It would be obvious if Zonehacks posted that he had only 200 stat points total.
People can get more pu and level up during the league but 5 extra points every month plus 3 points for leveling isn't that much. I am sure you will find many flaws and deem this stupid but thats what I think.
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| Posted: Mon Mar 03, 2008 7:43 pm Post subject: |
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| Panzerlord wrote: |
If they are a good clan, I don't think they should be penalized for that. If fat_rz does win a lot of games and comes up 1st, why should the league be made harder for him? He needs to win more, to get the same amount of points and if he does lose, he needs to win even MORE to make up for the loss. I haven't really read what you posted since I am in class right now, but I still don't the point of winning those first 5 games in the beginning. If your purpose is to win in the end, then getting a seed like the Eurohotties would be great.
I am not as smart as Falcon here but I think this system should be based on how many stat points the clan's team has. Level does not matter now since you could have a lvl 30 with more points than my level 69... So have the whole team post up screenshots proving how many stat points they have, and get the average. Some people might restat into a lower level and then restat again but, they waste money. It would be obvious if Zonehacks posted that he had only 200 stat points total.
People can get more pu and level up during the league but 5 extra points every month plus 3 points for leveling isn't that much. I am sure you will find many flaws and deem this stupid but thats what I think. |
The reason I created my system was so that we don't have to look at a crapload of variables like average levels and stuff like that. Getting a clan to submits screens of their stats makes this even worse. For one thing, screenshots are deceiving. It doesn't tell us if it's legit, what the actual timestamp is (when the ss was actually taken), etc. It would also mean looking at every person's stats from a roster for every clan before every match... that's just too much. Too much to filter through, too difficult (impossible) to determine authenticity.
My system is based on simplicity, while retaining our main goals: flexibility and balance.
The thing about my system is it doesn't matter what rank you are in the beginning. EuroHotties doesn't have an advantage in that position. Or in other words, elite clan's who purposely lose to get the final seed won't have an advantage. Why?
First off, let's pretend EuroHotties is REALLY a noobie clan. How are they going to move up in the rankings? They suck so it will be really difficult to get major win points from beating teams from rank 1-3. They will have a tough time even beating the rank 4s. Thus, to go up the rankings, the best way is to defeat a tough team, which earns major points. But the probability of doing so is slim. So their only choice is defeating mediocre clans, clans that are rank 3-4. But even then, this doesn't earn major points to really climb up the standings. So they essentially remain where they belong, as the 5th seeded team. But, because of how the points are distributed, they still have a chance, mathematically-speaking, of being the first seed. So it's balanced. Next:
If a clan PURPOSELY wants to be where EuroHotties is, let's say fat_rz (1st seed) lose the first 5 games (the ones determining ranking) and they achieve the last rank. Now what? They have two options: They proceed to lose the next and the next and the next to remain status quo. But what does that do? They won't make the playoffs this way. The 2nd option: Start pwning to get major points, which means very easily defeating the rank 2-4s, maybe even 1, and JUMP ahead of the standings quickly. But what does this do? You're just gaining lost ground. So it's balanced.
See, my system accounts for this. If a good team in a bad position wins, they go to the top rankings - where they belong.
If a good team gets a bad position on purpose, skewing the rankings, so a crap team is at the top, the noob team will fall back down very quickly since the teams they fight are more skilled and lower rankings. They will lose to these teams, and as the 1st seed, lose major points.
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| Posted: Wed Mar 05, 2008 8:08 pm Post subject: |
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Yeah it would be too complicated, but fair  !
But how would a team in this format advance to the playoffs? (if there is one)
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| Posted: Wed Mar 05, 2008 8:28 pm Post subject: |
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this is the long ass essays we have to read as a game mod >.>
eh... I will read it later xD
but I like falcon's system, it seems pretty balanced..
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| Posted: Thu Mar 06, 2008 7:13 am Post subject: |
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the EU league uses a point based system, but i never thought of using falcons idea of how low lvl clans get more points for beating high lvl clans i may have to implement it ^^.
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| Posted: Thu Mar 06, 2008 10:07 pm Post subject: |
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I have a feeling it was added on since most of the games were won by 1 team, which happened to be the best, until they left rakion, this way, other clans could have a chance of winning, and therefore could get more people to join, for they have a better chance of winning =O
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